I’m listening to David Cameron on BBC3 Dermot Meets David Cameron and realised a Conservative ‘untruth’. David Cameron is talking about a Big Society (which is total waffle IMO) and said they want to listen to the people and if they gain power after May 6th they’ll bring in the ability for the British people […]
Continue Reading Election 2010 Conservative Petitions and Banning Fox Hunting
In the opening of this debate it is said that “Polls shows around 75% of British people agree with the fox hunting ban”. This is a HALF-TRUTH. 75% of people who give a damn about it are against it. That leaves 15% of people who give a damn are FOR foxhunting. But approx 23% of the population actually CARE about it which means 5.75% of the population want foxhunting and 17.25% don’t want it. I am afraid that 17.25% of the population wanting a ban is not enough to have made this a legitimate law. Only the Conservatives can see the real truth behind this and they will repeal this daft and unworkable law. If only 17.25% of the population want a ban, that means 82.75% DID NOT WANT IT therefore what right had Blair got to ban it…? Answer: NONE!
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This article is ridiculous! The House of Lords is part of our system of government; if it is undemocratic for them to block legislation, then we can’t possibly be living in a democracy – but we clearly are, and the Lords had every right to reject the Bill. Foxes don’t vote, shouldn’t have any legislation protecting them – and they damage the rural economy -FACT. Fox-hunting is not a sport exclusively for ‘toffs’; I myself was born in Birmingham and my local hunt has no one that might be described as a ‘toff’. Blair himself had no issue with hunting, it was his wife’s idea (hence he didn’t turn up to vote on the ban). It didn’t pass through BOTH Houses which make up British government, it was undemocratically forced through by Blair and those who support the ban mainly live in urban areas – so its not really any of their business.
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No natural predators? Why don’t we start a petition to get the wolf brought back then? Or maybe just the lynx.. I suppose that wouldn’t be a popular decision with our countryside folks either. That parallels can be drawn between fox hunting and natural predation are rather contentious, especially given the fragmented nature of our countryside. If indeed fox numbers rise to such a level that they must be controlled, as you said, fox hunting is not very effective. Employ those people that might otherwise be employed by the hunt to bring the populations back down to sustainable levels through shooting. I’d say that that might be far more palatable for us uneducated urban dwellers. Fox hunting is heinous, I am not well-versed in the fors and againsts, however, any argument which attests the necessity of fox-hunting as a control measure is deeply deeply flawed.
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As we can see from hunters comments how arrogant and out of touch they are. Two personal experiences of my local hunt (West Somerset Fox Hounds) they trepssed in my garden twice over two seasons and on the latter two of their hounds were involved in a road accident at the top of our drive, it was appalling,the police attended it was front page of The West Somerset Free Press our local paper. The Hunt refused to comment to the jounalist covering the article. At the time the Hunt Master said “as I live in a rural area I must expect these incidents!” I was speachless,how insulting and high handed. the rural community spirit is a myth the hunters only think they matter! they have no compassion for people or animals,Long Live The Ban. Jennie
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LOL, i’ve always thought this site was biased and favoured the left wing and now just recieved a link to this from my facebook page.
Days before the General Election I started to see signs around my local town saying Save me, I just thought how low can the Labour party become, I mean it’s just desperate bringing back the issue of Fox hunting just before a General Election.
All the people that i’ve spoken to about fox hunting and that are against it live in cities or towns and know nothing of the rural areas and what goes on.
Fact 1 – Fox hunting continues, the ban on fox hunting as done nothing to stop fox hunting.
Fact 2 – Go to any agricultural show this summer and you can see the hounds for yourself where they invite the hounds to parade around the main arena’s.
Fact 3 – There are other and worser ways to kill a fox, this includes calling in game keepers, shooting, laying traps etc.
A farmer as to make a living and cares about his livestock, at this time of year when you have baby lambs out in the field lambs often go missing. When a lamb goes missing naturally this angers the farmer, most of the farmers nowadays seem to call in gamekeepers. A gamekeeper can kill 2 to 10 foxes in one night, a hunting pack would be doing good to kill 2 foxes within a period of 6 months, I heard of one that only killed 2 for the whole year which is quite common.
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Of course the site is going to be politically biased left of center since that’s where my political beliefs generally reside (not in all areas, but mostly). I’ve never suggested the site was anything but what it is, a privately owned website (blog) that’s for discussing politics.
I’ve had a fair number of right-wing (not center right, you know which party supporters I refer to) that believe this site is run my either the Labour party or by a Lib/Lab/Con pact to keep a particular right-wing party out of power :-) Hence the tag line for the site:
“UK General Election 2010 site is not affiliated with any political party including Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats, UKIP, Greens, BNP”
Which is true, but it doesn’t mean I’m not biased, or course I’m biased, everyone reading this is biased to their own political beliefs. Being biased does not mean you can’t be fair in dealing with political debate though, I don’t pretend to be 100% perfectly fair, but I try. If I were biased in dealing with political debate I’d delete perfectly valid, well thought out arguments that are hard to deal with by debate and I’ve never done that.
I was not using the fox hunting ban as some kind of desperate call to arms, (I had no idea it was such a big issue with voters) it was a clear example of how useless the Conservative policy to listen to petitions will be in practice since if with a clear majority in parliament (which the Conservatives fortunately do not have) they would almost certainly repeal the hunting ban and that would inevitably result in a petition that will gain more than 5% countrywide support and the Tories will be forced to take a second, second look at the hunting ban and if they had repealed it, it’s highly unlikely they’d ban hunting again!
What’s the point in having a petition policy if it won’t result in changes to legislation etc…?
That is what this article was about, not the rights and wrongs of the hunting ban per se. I did not expect this article to generate a debate on hunting ONLY, in hindsight of course it would, but at the time I was looking for discussions on the petition policy.
I think this petition idea would be worth pursuing if it resulted in not just a debate in parliament, but the possibility of referendums that the people could decide on. I think that would be a great idea, though I think we’d need more than 5% support (maybe 10%) via petitions to force a referendum on an issue.
For example I’d have no problem with the Conservatives giving the people a referendum on the hunting ban, (we know what the result would be) but I do have a problem with a pro hunting party pushing through legislation that has no major impact on the country (doesn’t do much to the economy either way for example) when the majority of the electorate do not want hunting as it used to be.
Maybe a risk of a referendum on our membership of Europe would force the government to actually explain to us the pros and cons of being in Europe so we can fully understand why we are currently in Europe etc… I don’t know how I’d vote on such a referendum since I don’t understand the issue enough. I think I’m generally pro Europe, but it’s from a position of ignorance!
David
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David
Is wrong on three counts:
1. The only unbiased opinion poll about hunting showed that 59% OPPOSED an outright ban on hunting
2. Hunting can be extremely effective as a means of controlling foxes: David should ask any Lake District or Welsh sheep farmer if he’s interested in the truth.
3. The fact that hunting with hounds unlike all other means kills the weak, lame, incapacitated foxes – and therefore most disruptive foxes – (it being seriously hard to kill a sound fox), is another big plus.
Oh yes, it’s also wonderful fun – so: go out hunting yourself with a local pack, with an open mind, many of course hunt on foot. See the MFHA website
Tks
Peter
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“A gamekeeper can kill 2 to 10 foxes in one night, a hunting pack would be doing good to kill 2 foxes within a period of 6 months, I heard of one that only killed 2 for the whole year which is quite common.”
So you agree hunting foxes with a pack of dogs is not effective pest control?
Add to that hunts breed their own foxes and not only is it not effective pest control, it makes the issue worse!
You make the assumption the people who in polls vote to keep the hunting ban also want a ban on controlling foxes.
I don’t know if any polls have been done asking the duel question of:
Should we ban fox hunting with hounds?
Should we ban farmers from controlling foxes on their land?
I’m sure there would not be a majority supporting a ban on farmers controlling foxes.
If a farmer has a problem with foxes killing his livestock and the farmer wants to clear out the fox population on his land, he has that right to do so.
If I were a farmer and I couldn’t stop foxes killing my livestock by having secure pens for chickens etc… or found foxes on my land were killing lambs, I’d shoot foxes to manage them.
What’s wrong is killing foxes with hounds for sport, the hunt has nothing whatsoever to do with controlling a pest as you’ve proved, it’s a blood sport and finding fun in killing wild animals is wrong in our society.
If you are part of the hunt why don’t you stand up and be counted and admit it’s about the thrill of the hunt and the thrill of the kill. As a teenager (before 15) I used to shoot birds and small mammals with an air rifle and I enjoyed the challenge. I now believe what I did was wrong, but that’s the way I was raised, a lack of moral guidance. I’m not going to pretend I didn’t enjoy killing things though.
Now I’d have no problem killing an animal if I had to, but I would NEVER do it for fun and that’s what fox hunting is about, the hunt finds killing a fox fun.
David
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Of course the hunting ban should stay but it should also be strengthened. Anyone who wants to set one animal on another is seriously flawed. It is not only foxes involved in this matter but also deer, hares and mink, and in recent times also otters. Otter hunting didn’t stop because hunters gave it up but because it became a protected mammal. Otter hunters became mink hunters and continued to hunt on the same waters, therefore continuing to disturb otters. It’s ridiculous to say that it’s only urban dwellers who favour a ban, it’s like saying all the people who hunt live in the countryside. Fox-hunters favour a ‘straight-necked’ fox which will give them a good run, they’re simply not interested in the lame or the old. Having observed all manner of hunts over the last 40 years I can safely say that participants are bullies, and that’s being polite.
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Firstly LOL. I have nothing to do with the hunting but then you know nothing about Farming or country matters either lets face it. If you knew the countryside especially here in Shropshire the rural folk know everything about everybody and what goes on, they don’t miss much believe me. I got all the dates of a hunting pack in a country pub that I occasionally go to, people talk in the countryside.
Hunts don’t breed foxes to kill them, they hunt in different areas so one fox perhaps see’s the hunt 2 to 3 times per year.
You make the mistake of thinking the hunting ban is effective, as David Cameron himself put it it’s made a mockery of the law.
Myth Number one: Hunting with dogs is illegal.
If you take the time to properly read the hunting bill, you will see that it is perfectly legal to hunt with hounds providing you either use 2 hounds and flush a fox to a gun or you can hunt with a full pack of hounds if you use a bird of prey for the kill. There is also an exemption to the ban if you are hunting in order to protect livestock. This means that the bill holds very little weight. The labour government made sure that this bill made very little difference to the farming/hunting fraternity, but gave the impression to the public that it was far more stringent than it actually is.
Myth number 2, they are all blood thristy murderers. 99.9 percent of people hunt for the social aspect. People don’t realise the importance of small communities in rural areas. The hunt is a community. As well as providing a welcome pest control service to farmers, they also help people with a number of different issues such as transporting animals, helping out in emergencies (it’s a very long list).
Hunting with hounds is actually a very green control method it culls the weakest a close season is observed they have a sensible code of practise/rules even the national trust after 10 yrs realised the way of hunts people and allowed the use of hounds to search for injured deer as a marksman has not got such a good nose.
I would also like to add the majority of the population wouldn’t think twice about laying a mouse trap if they had a mouse problem or even worse poision, this is much crueller than a dog biting a fox around the neck. It’s not inhumane the fox dies after the dog bites it around the neck, it gets torn when it’s already dead and therefore cannot feel anything. A fox isn’t just a pest like a mouse is, it’s also a deadly killer that doesn’t just kill to eat.
My grandmother used to keep hens years ago now, she had 80 in total. One night a fox got into one of the barns and killed every hen in sight, my nan came to the shed the next day to feed them and was faced with 20 dead hens. It wasn’t just the cost, it was her passion, she cared deeply about her hens as they were her pride and joy and it broke her heart, it really did.
Next time someone thinks it’s cruel they should think well how would I like it if my pet cats/dogs were killed by a fox? What if all of a sudden I had a big chunk taken out of my wage slip? Then next thing a huntsman comes up there offering to help you with your problem for free, you might just take him up on the offer. A farmer told me that a fox went and killed all his kittens to, so it’s not just lambs, rabbits or hens either.
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P.S. To David
If I may just ask you one question, what is you ethnic background and what nationality are you?
It’s just the impression that I get your not true English/Welsh, not in the real sense of the word and your identity. Could possible be from the north of England or South wales.
The majority of Labour supporters fall in one of the following catergories sadly.
1. Living on Benefits
2. From a mining background
3. Not English or Welsh
4. Gay/Lesbian
5. Animal rights campaigner
6. Ethnic minority
7. Family/Friends on benefits, don’t want to work etc.
8. Works for the council
9. Heavily involved in a union, working in the public sector NHS, Police.
Sadly most of the people I speak to that vote Labour live off benefits, don’t want to work as too lazy. There are a lot of breeders, worse case I heard was from a friend of mine who used to work at the Esso petrol station in the rough part of town. A girl came in there wanting to buy fags, he refused as she was too young. She then said ‘i’ve got a kid you know’. He replied ‘Look, around here that means bugger all’. Turned out she was only 14 and her baby’s father was also her father and her father only got his daughter up the duff so as the family could get more benefits instead of going out to work like the rest of us have to.
If you work hard, climb the ladder and get on in life and save up a bit of money then in my opinion you have a right to keep that money, Labour thinks otherwise and would rather take that money and give it to a person thats never even done a days work in their life.
You look on an election map and see where the Labour have seats in England and wales, they have none in the rural areas yet have all the seats in the really deprieved areas where a lot of people are living off benefits, these people aren’t stupid. We even had a message on the conservative page from a woman with 8 kids saying she was worried now the tories were in, ‘who was going to keep her’. I’m not joking either, this woman was dead serious.
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Talk about stereotyping Labour supporters, what an idiotic comment!
I don’t fit your retarded stereotype of what you think a Labour supporter is.
How does this fit in with your ideas:
University educated
Happily married (together almost 20 years) with kids (home educated, eldest at Uni)
Self employed/business owner
Home owner for ~5 years, looking to buy a second home (1st one close to being paid off)
Make more money than we need
Live in a Conservative controlled area
Think animal rights campaigners are scary (the fanatical ones are)
I don’t know any family or friends living on benefits: unless you count pensioners
Oh and I’m white and was born in the Midlands
Not one of your 9 points describe me.
Had you had a point 10 like:
10. Not a selfish person who believes those who are successful have a responsibility to the society that’s to some degree made them successful and they’ll probably be needing that society in old age.
That would cover why I vote Labour and not the Conservatives.
I can not support a political party that is happy to have whole sections of society fall through the net when things go wrong because it’s cheaper and they (the better off in society) are alright. That sort of society results in perfectly able young people never reaching their full potential because their parents can’t afford to pay for them to become the doctors and scientists etc… that will be running the country when we are all old.
Given a choice I wouldn’t vote Labour either as they are very wasteful in how they spend our money and have been trampling on our civil liberties, but they care more about the whole country than the Conservatives. So even voting Labour is a reluctant choice, there is no political party that truly matches what I believe, but Labour are the closest, unfortunately.
David
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Didn’t have anything to say about the fox hunting then so clearly I won that argument, you clearly are deluded.
Even if your white/british you defo fall into one of my other categories so I would go with claiming benefits either you are or have, can say what you like but we can’t see you or learn anything about you so how do we know that your not telling lies. The Labour party is so full of lies, deceit.
Why don’t you put at the top of the page only Labour/Lib dem supporters welcome? You slam every tory supporter that starts posting on your web page, anybody would think we were like the BNP. Just cause your a leftie doesn’t mean everyone else as to be, your a bigot. You tell people to vote against the tories and tell people what to vote in what seat, you come up with ‘reasons to vote conservative’ yet don’t come up with a single reason. I am going to report your page, don’t you realise that this goes against more than 1 out of every 3 people?
If I were to create a web page even though I don’t like Labour at least I would let people post there views and not attack them.
You are then stupid enough to think your poll is right when it was against every single poll out there like yougov and comres.
There won’t be another election for a long while now so I will not be coming back to your website so don’t bother replying.
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ROFLOL to “I am going to report your page”.
Exactly who are you going to report this page to?
What a numpty!
BTW I don’t have to waste my time arguing for a hunting ban since we already have one because the majority of this country disagree with blood sports.
David
Well said!
Oh and KEEP HUNTING!!!!!
Just stumbled upon this page whilst trawling the internet and thought I would just give my two cents. Steph, you are one of the most prejudiced and small-minded people I have ever had the misfortune to see on a forum. Every single one of your classifications for a Labour voter is as bigoted and imbecilic as it is flawed.
Just thought I’d let you know.
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